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Talk:Silver Fin Restaurant
Why exactly is Suchong given this?? Suchong is a geneticist. What possible reason is this 'Tear' weirdness being given to him ?? And then he somehow creates his own Lutece Device ?? Sorry, its apparent they just threw this story line together without much thought. Might as well have said Suchong used magic eastern herbs or a magic wand to do all this stuff (ditto for the game writers coming up with this stuff). Opium dreams make more sense than this. : It was implied that the Luteces' had been in cahoots/ working alongside Suchong which helped with a lot of technology found in Columbia and the similarities between the two cities. Also, once a tear opens up in one universe, whether the same or completely different timeline, tears will appear indefinitely. Just because you can't try to piece things together doesn't mean you should bash it on the game's talk page itself. They have forums for that. : - : Ryan gave it to Suchong .... A threat to his City.... "Tears will appear indefinitely" ? Where does it state that? The contradictions are easy to spot. Pseudo-Science is fine for fantasy except that usually there is an attempt to adhere/be consistant with it once it is declared to be in effect. Frodo never got to use a Phaser Rifle and its a good thing. ::: I don't quite get your meaning or where you're getting at, you're being a tad incoherent and I apologize if English isn't your first language which is understandable. But where does it say Ryan gave it to Suchong? The machine came in when Suchong was under Fontaine's wing and Rosalind Lutece and Elizabeth mention it once or twice throughout the DLC that the Luteces' had a kind of partnership with Suchong. It is mentioned over the PSA announcements, in one of the Gary and Betty segments: :'''Betty:''' ''"Garry, do you see that, too? Looks like some doorway into another place and time."'' :'''Garry:''' ''"I do, Betty, and it's absolutely nothing to worry about."'' :'''Betty:''' ''"Are you sure?"'' :'''Garry:''' ''"Betty, we live in Rapture: a place of perpetual scientific breakthrough and wonder. You need to get used to seeing few strange sights from time to time."'' :'''Betty:''' ''"I suppose we are living in the future."'' :::Given that the Luteces' had mess around in Rapture's reality BEFORE Elizabeth first entering 1960 (presumably after Jack's arrival), the Rapture reality would have been intertwined and tear rifts would either rarely appear or would be hard to find. My theory, (my personal thoughts) is that the very bright white light that we see below Persephone that supposedly fuels the ADAM slugs is actually a forever opening tear and the slugs draw power from that. : :- :From this page in the WIKI : :'''"but this did not go unnoticed by the restaurants owner, Morris, who reported it along with the strange things he'd seen through the [[Tear]] that was now in his establishment. As soon as Ryan learned of the strange occurrence ''he handed the property over to Suchong'' so that he could further study the Tear and keep it hidden from Rapture's populace."''' :Elizabeth had "to have come into Rapture" at least by 1958 (BAS1 just before the Kashmir Incident that happened at the end of that year) How long before that ... who knows. Slugs theory - problem was that they (slugs with the venom with raw ADAM) were discovered by Tenenbaum in early 50s (not clear exactly when but was well before ADAM was discovered etc... ) and for the slugs to become powered by Tears thats a whole 'nuther issue) Bright Light in the Abyss... It doesnt parallel with Tears in Columbia. But then Infinite Universes... Anything and everything is now possible if you assume everything youve seen before is in some other dimension and nothing has to be consistant with anything else. (Its the reason most fantasy authors stay away from such things as it moves any story they are trying write into irrelevance) - Suchong - Medical Researcher ... Again why did '''Ryan''' after hearing of these Tears assign Suchong to investigate?? Is he the only scientist in the City ?? Suchong being one of Fontaines old employees might have been reason for Ryan to not really trust him with this kind of unknown. Doubly so with the hints that Ryan may have known something about Suchongs involvement with the 'embryo' plot with Fontaine ??? These 'Tear things' (seen all over to the extent that even public announncements now ABOUT THEM !!) - No sign of them in the previous games. So that "Rapture Prime" stock is going down down down. : Quantum something also made Elizabeth a quantum mechanic to 'fix' the machine ... Elizabeth mustve had read that book of Luteces : (''How to Build an Interdimensional Device with Things you Find in your Kitchen Cupboards'' - Comstock Press 1894) "Elizabeth gains access to the laboratory/restaurant in order to repair the [[Lutece Device|Trans-Dimensional Device]]. In order to do so, she needed a carbon filter, a cathode ray tube, and the plasmid [[Old Man Winter]] to maintain the heating coils. " Sounds just like [[Jack]] just adding the pieces he was sent to find to the [[Assembling_the_Bomb|EMP bomb]] of [[Kyburz]]. Wasnt ''Ionic Gel'' the stuff that Ryan used to slick back his hair? Would be kind of a short game if Jack blew himself up with the Nitroglyceine at that point (dodgy stuff that Nitro). They really missed the boat by not having many multiple 'You Lose' endings like that throughout Bioshock. Which one? There is no need to have two of these images, so I'm wondering: Which one? BaSE2 Silver Fin Restaurant Framed Suchong Newspaper Article.png|Heads? |or Tails? --[[User:Shacob|Shacob]] ([[User talk:Shacob|talk]]) 21:41, October 2, 2014 (UTC) :Even though I think that Heads is the better image, Tails was uploaded first and is larger so the text can be read more easily (even if the weapon is in the way). For that reason we should keep Tails. I wish people would remember that the best option is to go to the original file and choose "upload a new version" so these decisions don't need to be made. :[[User:Unownshipper|Unownshipper]] ([[User talk:Unownshipper|talk]]) 22:18, October 2, 2014 (UTC) Left hand one (bluegreen) is much better than the red one. It's larger, more easy to read. sm --[[User:Solarmech|Solarmech]] ([[User talk:Solarmech|talk]]) 12:35, October 3, 2014 (UTC) Heads, definatley. [[User:TheLighthouse|TheLighthouse]] ([[User talk:TheLighthouse|talk]]) 15:22, October 3, 2014 (UTC) Miss Comstock In ''[[Burial at Sea - Episode 2]]'', [[Andrew Ryan]] has an exchange with [[Elizabeth]] during which he refers to her by the moniker "Miss Comstock." The implications surrounding this have recently caused a discussion and I was asked to add my two cents, I invite [[User:Solarmech|Solarmech]] and [[User:H. Roosevelt|H. Roosevelt]] and to do the same. I've included the video to the right to document not only the mention of the "Miss Comstock" line, but also to capture the essence of the whole interaction. One suggestion put forth is that Ryan has been watching through the [[Tear]]s and knows Elizabeth is from [[Columbia]] and is aware to some extent of her powers. By this logic, he's aware of the prophet [[Zachary Hale Comstock]], that Elizabeth is his daughter, and that is why he refers to her by that name (note: this does not necessarily mean that he's aware of the "Investigator Booker DeWitt" in Rapture). Another suggestion put forth is that Elizabeth donned the pseudonym Elizabeth Comstock when she arrived in Rapture so that she could pursue Investigator Booker without drawing attention to herself. She'd need to have a name to blend into the city and realistically had to forge some documents so that she didn't stick out as an outsider. She couldn't call herself Elizabeth DeWitt as that'd draw too much attention/cause her target to grow suspicious, but she could take her former "assigned" surname without revealing herself (remember, when Comstock crossed over into Rapture, his prior memories of being Zachary Hale Comstock were rewritten). With this idea in mind, Ryan is addressing her based on city information records or perhaps her "You Belong to Me" recording information. A third suggestion is that it's an oversight. It was recently explained to me that the production of ''Burial at Sea'' was an absolute MESS. Major changes had to be made when the initial team failed to deliver, content was cut, story elements were changed, and the whole plots were rewritten as the designers were in a stressful crunch to meet deadlines. With that in mind, Ryan calling Elizabeth Miss Comstock could easily be understood as an element left over from an earlier iteration that was never corrected and ended up being left as an unexplained detail. Personally, I believe it was this third explanation as the fact remains, while we can fan-theorize and head-canon to our heart's content, it's not made clear how Ryan knows this very important and potentially game-changing revelation and that's a failure of storytelling. [[Ken Levine]] is known for not making things too obvious to interpretation, but I don't believe he'd deliberately be this abstract. As for a narrative explanation, I most wholeheartedly believe in option two. While [[Yi Suchong]] has most assuredly been studying Columbia, Tears, and Elizabeth, it's clear from his dialogue that Ryan has only a baseline understanding. When he communicates with her over the monitor, it's as if he only just started reading the notes Suchong left from his studies and is just piecing things together. This wouldn't be the case if he'd been studying Columbia alongside Suchong. Additionally, Suchong is in it for himself, I doubt he'd be willingly sharing this discovery with Ryan and thus expose himself as having stolen a large amount of his discoveries from Columbia technology. Because all three scenarios are LIKELY, it'd probably be wrong for us to outright state a "this means that" conclusion with any certainty. We can mention that Ryan calls Elizabeth "Miss Comstock" as a statement of fact when writing articles, but any attempts to drawn a conclusion based on the intention of that name is speculation. [[User:Unownshipper|Unownshipper]] ([[User talk:Unownshipper|talk]]) 06:01, October 22, 2019 (UTC) :With these scenarios being possible, I didn't think the trivia point was a necessary addition as it blatantly implies something akin to the first explanation. The Sally point is pretty set-stone, this one isn't. :From my point of view, Ryan's dialogue appears to lean towards him mostly being ignorant of Columbia's specific existence while also trying to talk smart about something he admits to knowing little about. In interrupting Suchong and Elizabeth's arrangement, he was obviously aware something he'd thought impossible had taken place by commenting he believes she's one of a kind but doesn't imply he's filled in on why that is. His offer to her also seems to hint it served as an attempt for him further study her origins as Suchong is likely to not have divulged much of his own research to a point. :Though I'm open to Ryan potential having more knowledge than he let on, I don't believe he'd be calling Elizabeth "Miss Comstock" in reference to Zachary Hale Comstock, that might be assuming a bit much.--[[User:H. Roosevelt|H. Roosevelt]] ([[User talk:H. Roosevelt|talk]]) 08:05, October 22, 2019 (UTC) ::I think there are several assumptions being made that people don't realize are assumptions. First of all is that Elizabeth used a surname at all while in Rapture. When she introduces herself in Episode 1 she says "Elizabeth" "You can call me Elizabeth." She does not give a last name. Even better is this poster If you notice there is no last name there either. And Rapture is a Laissez Faire city and is not big on government. While there were Rapture ID’s who is going to be asking people for them? Not what passes for Rapture’s government (at least until the start of the Civil War). After all Fontaine did say that “Rapture... paradise of the confidence man.” So papers and ID’s were not a big thing in Rapture. ::As for using the last name Comstock, why? She ''HATES'' Comstock, '''ALL''' Comstock's and is in Rapture to kill the last one. Elizabeth spent most of the main game fighting tooth and nail against the very idea that she was Comstock's daughter. Using that last name would be a betrayal of everything she fought for. Elizabeth could just choose any name she liked if she needed one. She could even have used Songbird. ::As for what Ryan knows about Elizabeth, he seems to know more than people think. Ryan was a control freak, he watched things all over Rapture and we know he took special interest the Tear Machine as he had a giant screen set up in the Silver Fin Restaurant. He clearly was concerned about the possibility that someone could come through the Tear there and he knew that someone already had entered through it as Elizabeth’s arrival was caught on camera. ::Additional proof that Ryan was watching what was going on was that he knew Sally’s name even though Elizabeth hadn’t told him. And consider the timing of him starting to talk to Elizabeth. It was right after she had given Suchong the hair sample. Nice timing there. Suchong got what he wanted and Ryan tosses the deal Suchong had with Elizabeth aside. ::Ryan knew that Elizabeth came from Columbia from this line “You're one of a kind in this world, or others.” “Or Others” And Ryan isn’t so blind that he didn’t put it together that the Elizabeth from Columbia was the same one who was now in Rapture. And whatever name Elizabeth used in Rapture, Ryan would have use what he considered to be her “real one”. The one from Columbia. ::Now despite all this it’s not clearly stated what Ryan knew, so that’s why I didn’t put it in the Behind the Scenes, but felt that this was unusual enough that it should be mentioned. sm --[[User:Solarmech|Solarmech]] ([[User talk:Solarmech|talk]]) 09:41, October 22, 2019 (UTC) :::The use of "Miss Comstock" is unusual and worth mentioning in as straightforward a way possible in the main body of a pertinent article, but we should avoid overstating its importance in say a Behind the Scenes section. People can debate the meaning of the line here on the Talk so long as we don't try to speculate to any specific meanings on the main page. :::Relatedly, I'm not disagreeing with you directly, just responding to some points you raise here. I think it's far, far too much to say papers and ID’s were not a big thing in Rapture. Rapture is a Laissez Faire economy, but it still needs to function as a city and that means tracking and keeping control of the population. Even before the [[Rapture Civil War]], the Cold War era paranoias were in full effect with Ryan fearing invasion from foreign agents and Surface governments. Logic aside, we have in game evidence of record-keeping in one form or the other from the tracking of citizens[[Andrew Ryan|Andrew Ryan's]] [[Audio Diary]]: [[Fontaine Must Go]], use of formal residency contractsBooker DeWitt: "''You read your residency contract with Ryan Industries? 'In perpetuity.' We're all buried at sea.''", the [[Need to Know Theater]]s shaping public thought with propaganda, and the use of [[Genetic Key]]s. It's too unlikely that Rapture didn't keep records of citizen's identities. :::With the line, "Elizabeth. You can call me Elizabeth," well that's just good old-fashioned film noir: all style and seduction. Plus it was in the DLC launch trailer leading me to believe it's power serves as a memorable quote more than a line of specific narrative significance. With the poster, it could be said that she only uses one name as a stage name like other famous singers (Adele, Cher, Madonna... Elvis if you want something more period appropriate). :::As for the question of why using the name Comstock? It's the same reason why she'd go on a mission with him or allow him to hold her while sharing a dance: she's goal-oriented. Why not just shoot him and save hersself time? Simple, Elizabeth is on a mission of revenge and has one goal in mind: make this iteration of Comstock remember what he did to baby Anna. She wants him to suffer with that guilt before he dies. She's not happy to be in his presence (this is evident by her attitude and her curt commands "get up!" when she revives him if the player dies) but she pushes through her seething resentment to see her version of justice carried out. To that end, she might've adopted the surname to jog his memory. As for why not use a made up name? Which name? I agree that the most logical step if this were real life would be to become Elizabeth Smith or something, but the game players would be left distracted wondering why she's using some made up name pulled from nowhere. It wouldn't be until the final plot twist that it'd make sense. And there isn't a good name she could've chosen from the main game either. DeWitt would've raised questions from Inspector Booker, Lutece would've alerted the players ("yep, this is the same Elizabeth who has full control of her powers at the end of ''Infinite''"), we didn't learn that Watson was he mother's maiden name until Levine revealed it on Twitter so that would've seemed out of nowhere, and Songbird is not a surname. :::To your last point, did Ryan do that or Suchong specifically? Suchong could've arranged for the screen to be set up under orders as a high-ranking researcher of Ryan Industries. As you stated, Ryan was a control freak and concerned about invaders in his city, but he could've delegated the task of initial research to Suchong while he ran the daily operations of his business and tended to the politics of the [[Rapture Central Council]]. And again, how much would Suchong share with Ryan up front? His dealings with [[Jeremiah Fink]] would've been kept strictly secret to preserve his reputation. Also, Ryan had a watchful eye on Rapture, but it wasn't the Big Brother/camera's covering every corner city of today (if it were connecting Fontaine to the smuggling ring wouldn't have been so hard). Even if a camera already set up in the Silver Fin (as opposed to one set up by Suchong after he started studying the tears originating from the restaurant), even if he does know about Elizabeth's ability to travel between realities, it's not clear that he knows about Columbia and the denizens of that city. :::Does his knowing Sally’s name signify anything? [[Sander Cohen]] was put in charge of dealing with the [[Little Sister]]s after the [[Little Sister's Orphanage|orphanages]] closed, Sally was the only Little Sister located in the section of [[Fontaine's Department Store]] Elizabeth was in, and Sander would've told Ryan any details he wanted since he's in the inner circle. :::Again, just playing Devil's Advocate here, nothing leans conclusively one way or the other. :::[[User:Unownshipper|Unownshipper]] ([[User talk:Unownshipper|talk]]) 15:37, October 22, 2019 (UTC) ::: :::While I do believe Solarmech brings up some fair arguments, I'm in agreement with the fact that this remains relatively up in the air, if not vague, and shouldn't be treated as if it's one way. :::It doesn't seem too far-fetched for Elizabeth to use the surname "Comstock" while in Rapture. I mean, I personally think it a strange choice by the devs if that is the case but it's not like Elizabeth wasn't shown to be acting differently than she otherwise had in Columbia (ex: not exclaiming disgust at seeing Air Grabber executions, smoking despite coughing near it in Columbia, etc). It's clear she's stepped way out of her comfort zone in order to fit into Rapture's society with the sole objective to give Comstock a rude awakening from his repressed memories. :::However, the point about fighting against the idea that she was Comstock's daughter is a bit inaccurate. Sure, in the Hall of Heroes she's initially taken aback by the revelation but she doesn't specifically fight the idea as she later develops hate for her supposed mother for not accepting her. She opposes ''succeeding'' him. Even at the final confrontation, while it's apparent that the ship had long sailed for him to win her over, she approaches him wanting answers rather than wanting him just killed outright. [[User:H. Roosevelt|H. Roosevelt]] ([[User talk:H. Roosevelt|talk]]) 21:10, October 22, 2019 (UTC) ::: ::::About the ID’s I guess this is where knowing a lot of history gives me a different viewpoint. The US in this time period didn’t even really have any kind of identification system. The Driver’s Licenses we see today were never intended to be a form of ID. During WWII people would have identification papers, but only the people that needed them for long distance travel or to enter restricted areas. While Rapture did have ID cards and contracts, a Rapture official wouldn’t be checking your ID if you signed a rental contract for an apartment. In fact the person you would be renting from wouldn’t check the ID either so long as they got the money. Cities much larger than Rapture ran quite well for centuries without having a someone tracking everyone’s movements. Did we see anyone check ID’s in BaS Episode 1? Or see the use of Genetic Keys? All that only started after the Civil War started. People only using a single name for a stage name is a fairly new and usually the result of the fame they have. When Elvis started out he was known by his full name, not just “Elvis”. Cher became famous as part of “Sonny and Cher” and so on. As for using the name Comstock in Rapture to jog the fake Booker’s memory, if she was doing that why did she never say the name Comstock until AFTER he remembered? Sorry, it doesn’t make sense. And while we didn’t know the name Watson until Levine told us, Elizabeth would have known because of her powers and of course Levine had whole backgrounds for the BSI characters written up even if we have not seen them. Oh, and by the way there are people who use the name Songbird as a surname. It’s rare, but there are people with it. And considering this is Rapture where you can be what you want to be, no one would think twice about someone with an odd last name, particularly if they were a singer. Remember the poster? It does say Songbird on it. Not proof, but the possibility is there. The fact is Ryan DID have hidden cameras in Rapture. This is how Ryan, Atlas and even Tenenbaum were able to keep track of Jack at points. And we see that they had been around for some time since there was one in the Silver Fin and it caught Elizabeth’s arrival. If it hadn’t been there then where did the picture of her arriving come from? If Suchong had set up the screen in the Silver Fin, why didn’t he use it? He had enough time and his ego was certainly big enough to want to use it. But only Ryan used it. As for Ryan watching Suchong he clearly did as we see cameras in his lab and he was aware of the deal he made with Elizabeth. [[Julie Langford]] learned the hard way she was being watched and I don’t see Ryan letting someone like Suchong having free reign. While Suchong wouldn’t have told Ryan about his contacts with Fink that doesn’t mean Ryan didn’t know about them and allowed it. So long as they posed no threat to Rapture and Suchong could “borrow” technology that would help Rapture of course. Did you ever wonder how Suchong, who was NOT a theoretical physicist but a medical doctor, was able to make the Vita Chambers or a Tear Machine? Sounds like he might have help from Fink or at least stolen technology/quantum physics information from Columbia. Do you really think Ryan delegated much of anything and didn’t at least keep track of what was happening? How did Bill McDonagh meet Ryan? Ryan watched Bill installing plumbing in Ryan’s apartment. If Ryan watches that he’s going to keep track of Suchong. As for Ryan knowing Sally’s name asking Sander Cohen is going the long way about. And at this point Sander and Ryan were starting to fall out as [[The Old Bear]] shows. In fact sending a Little Sister to help Atlas (Even if Atlas payed through the nose for it) was a form of betrayal. We know Ryan had agents in Fontaine’s Department store and there were hidden cameras. And of course Suchong was talking to Elizabeth by radio and Suchong works for Ryan. So Ryan could just ask Suchong or have listened to the radio. There is another way for Ryan to find out and that is Ryan’s attention was drawn to Fontaine’s when the Bathysphere was sent down to it. The department store was a prison for Ryan’s enemies and you can bet he kept track of any traffic to or from it. He could well have been watching things from when Comstock and Elizabeth arrived. And once he saw Elizabeth’s powers he *would* have started digging. If he didn’t know a lot before that (which he should have) he would certainly have learned anything he could after that. And that gives Ryan plenty of time to learn about Columbia. sm --[[User:Solarmech|Solarmech]] ([[User talk:Solarmech|talk]]) 12:11, October 23, 2019 (UTC) References